Creativity

Creativity

Bill: This is the Leadership Coaching Podcast. My name is Bill Tierney. I'm a results coach and IFS practitioner, certified IFS practitioner. And this is Dr Dr Martin Ketelhut. Marty,

Marty: Mm

Bill: thanks for joining me. Another episode. Uh, we just briefly discussed that we would like to talk about creativity today, unlike many of the episodes that we recorded, we've already talked. For 10 or 15 minutes often about the topic before we hit record today. We haven't really talked about it other than me mentioning that where my mind is as I come into this. Recording today is a little different than normal. Today is the day before Christmas 2024. And this is my first conversation of the day. Normally when I'm coming into a recording of an episode, I've already had a coaching group and at least one, sometimes two clients prior to coming in. And so I'm, Often inspired

Marty: Ah,

Bill: those coaching sessions and that that has me kind of already thinking about these different concepts and ideas.

Marty: right, right.

Bill: And I just mentioned that, you know, where my mind has been is in writing my book and working and doing the creative work. And that's when you said, well, Let's talk about that today.

Marty: Let's talk about creativity. Yeah. Um, One of the, one of the selves, uh, core qualities. And, um, so one of the ways we can talk about it is, you know, um, it's desirable. We all like to be able to create, um, and, uh, how do we get in that? In that place, you know, a number of people that I talked to, especially here at the holiday season. It's like, oh, yeah, I don't have time to bake or I don't have time to wrap presents or, or, you know, to work on a book like you are taking time to do there's just too much going on. So that's starting to hint at the difference between the creative state. And the, um, the busy mind state. But another thing I think would be interesting to touch on, um, is the difference between being creative and creating. So I've, I've mentioned this with a couple of clients recently that, you know, there's by the former, I mean, doing something that falls into the category of creative, you know, it could be macrame or it could be playing the guitar or it could be. Painting or playing an instrument. Those are all things we consider creative activities, but that's there's a, there's a soft, not a difference between that and. Bringing something into existence that wasn't in existence before, right? create, like, bring, making something out of nothing, right? Which is what you've done with your practice, it's what you've done with your life. know, it's what, um, we do in a new relationship, right? There's a lot of, just to, just to hint at how creative we are. Um, In this sense of like bringing something into existence, not just not just doing, you know, a craft or something like that, which is They're it. They're not mutually exclusive. They do overlap. um, when I talk to business leaders, for example, right, they want to be creative in this second sense. I want to bring existence. want to, you know, create wealth. That wasn't there before those kinds of things, is different from, yeah, on the weekend. I like to, um, you know, uh, weave baskets or, um, you know, do something creative,

Bill: Yeah. Like Nora, who, who does the, um, she makes, she made the plates for her son, that whole dinner set that she made and she, she just enjoys that process. Uh, even last night I picked up the guitar for the first time in probably a couple of months, at least. And pulled it out. And now it's out in the living room. Usually it hangs on the wall in my bedroom and it might as well not even be there. I did. I'm used to seeing it hanging on the wall and it doesn't even occur to me as something to do to pull off the wall. But I did. We're going to a Christmas party. Tomorrow dinner tomorrow, and I I'm going to bring my guitar. I, I used to do that all the time. If I can't, if I was going to be in a social social situation, unless it was a funeral, I was, I was bringing my guitar and, uh, actually, I brought my guitar to a funeral once too, uh, because I was asked to play, but, uh, I took it. I pulled it out last night and the moment I got it tuned up. The creative juices started flowing. It's, it's very enjoyable for me. It's very rewarding and very enjoyable. I've heard people say, have you ever talked to anybody that said I'm not creative?

Marty: Yes, I have. And I begged to differ.

Bill: Yeah, well, same here. Same here. Although I. I guess I used to think that There are people that are, creative and people that aren't until I realized we, we are all creative. There are those of us who for whatever reason, don't see ourselves as creative. And then there are those that do identify as, as creative. I certainly see myself as creative now. I don't know that I did when I was in my younger years,

Marty: There are, there are certain social structures that, um, inherit or not that we, um, carry on, accept and carry on, or not like that say, you know, like, you have to be, You have to come out of a school, you have to have studied with somebody, or you have to have made a certain amount of money, or had a show at a certain museum or something, or gallery, in order to be creative, you know, and so, so, if you accept those norms, then, well, most of us are not creative, but, right, but that's just not really what creative means.

Bill: right? And there's so many different directions we can go with this conversation. It feels like we're kind of trying to find our way. You introduced that there's a distinction between creating and being creative. I'd like, I'd like to hear more about that. Can you share some more of your thoughts about that?

Marty: Yes. Especially when I'm talking in the business world, you know, this, this might not be as important distinction but I don't know, you know, people want, the business leader wants to build a business like to, to create something that isn't there already, uh, you know, a business machine, a team, uh, A, you know, a track record, all that that shows that we have, we have created something that wasn't there before. And that's different from, know, they're not interested. These people that I'm coaching a business, they're not interested in just finding something to keep them busy when they're not working that, you know, rather be working, you know, and it is important that they do have that kind of, you know. creative downtime activity, even if it's sailing, you know, like that, they're learning how and, and designing a way to sail a boat is just as creative as, you know, um, knitting socks, I would say, you know, so they need both, but they're very interested in this notion of, Especially when, when you get into like project design, the difference between a project that's designed to bring something into existence. Versus it's something that just rehearses motions. We already go through.

Bill: Following models that are already established, whether they are our own or someone else's, um, repetitiously going through. the same motions that we have every day for the last several years, that, that would be an absence of creativity. And, and as I think about that, I've certainly had a lot of experiences with that and it is life sucking to, to experience that without creative expression. Um, I'm exhausted just doing the same things over and over and over and over again because I have to, because I feel like I must, or because I just haven't tapped into that creative flow.

Marty: the classic commentary on on that repetitious behavior that has no creativity. And is that famous Lucille ball skit? Or it's a, it's an episode from, uh,

Bill: I love Lucy,

Marty: I love Lucy, right? Where she's on the conveyor belt, just doing the same thing. But of course she, you know, she's creative. She creates something new out of that. But I, getting back to, you know, it is said, so I'm not bringing this up as a matter of religious dogma, but it is said that we are made in the image of God and God, the creator, that would mean that we have that power to create something out of nothing. Right? Like, let's say a family. Let's take the example of a family. Like, you know, two people come together and they create a family and children and and, uh, A heritage and a legacy and, know, a place to live and a set of values and right all and participation in their community. Now, that's something that wasn't there before. Those 2 people created a family,

Bill: That's right?

Marty: but we don't normally think like, yeah, that's like, what God does, you know, bring something into existence that wasn't there before. Whereas, you know, just, uh, doing some, you know, like, collaging. is a great thing to do. I don't have anything against it. It's can be amazing.

Bill: I don't think anybody has anything against collaging.

Marty: that's not as well there that I would say is probably on that overlap, you know, cause you are making something there. Um,

Bill: Yeah, different, different strokes. I think of my son, Billy, who is so extremely creative. And there can be some friction between how much of my energy and effort and time do I want to put into creativity? And how much do I want to put into functionality? So to be successful in the world,

Marty: Utility would be another word in case people are, listening. A utility, something, you know, that you do to accomplish a task as opposed to for its own

Bill: right? So the word I was using was functionality. You're using the word utility. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so, so Billy, my son, uh, was invited to come volunteer to run the concessions for an improv troupe

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: when he was 17 years old, he's now 44. And, uh, I had to stop and do the math. Is that yes, 44. And now he's been, he was invited to actually perform in the improv troop after he'd been volunteering for a few months. Yeah. Had a mentor, Mark Robbins, funny guy, funny, funny guy here in Spokane, Washington. Uh, and he fell in love with improv. And so here he is all these years later, what's the math on that? 27 years later. And he's, he's, he's devoted his life, his profession and his career to around the creative, uh, process, I guess, of improv. Not just improv. He's the marketing. He does all the marketing for the would be island center for the arts. He, he teaches improv classes, but the challenge here is how do you support a family and make a living while expressing yourself creativity? And how do you find that balance? And of course, those of us that are invested in in creativity face that same challenge. How do we, and we see folks that do very well for themselves with just expressing themselves creatively and utilitarian in the world functioning very well. Very, very well. But most of us that are really wanting to spend more time creating are faced with that challenge. How do I create? And also get some sort of a return on that investment. Sometimes there's not a monetary return on that investment.

Marty: Right. Given, given our society's values and, and the hierarchy of those values. But I think part of the, of the reason for, um, bringing in this distinction between just being creative versus creating something is to show that we are all creative and. The closer you can get to that middle line, uh, where you're, you're bringing something into existence and it's. You know, it's some, it's moving you out of a, out of just a life of repetition and, and being in a rut, The more you can see your life as on that tightrope, then I think the, the more satisfying it's going to be, And so I think that. There are people who do jobs that need to be done that are more repetitious. You know, I suppose repairing a car is an example. Um, you know, that you, there's a certain way it has to be. You do this, you get this same working car, going every time another one comes in, it's like, okay, just get it to do what it needs to do. There's no, like, Invention of new car there or a new way that the transmission could work. No, it's got to work this way. Um, but, but, uh, what I would say is that that person has meditative capacity or, you know, a capacity, to pay attention to sin, the same thing over and over, which is. You know, very valuable quality that somebody who's, you know, just brainstorming all day doing nothing but quote unquote, creative work that might not have that ability to focus and stay with a task and do it again and again and do it better and better each time. Right? So isn't it's bad to be not creative conversation. Right? And you should be creative. That's that's not you. All human beings are made in the image of God and they are creating at some level. And there's a lot of credit to be given for those people who have more repetitious jobs. Right, because they, they, it takes a different kind of attention span focus and care do those jobs than ones where, you know, you just bop from one meeting to another. Saying creative things, like, that's different. That's a very different mind. Mm-hmm .

Bill: I'm thinking of Tony, my wife, my wife's son, Tony is a mechanic . And, uh, one of the most creative people I know. And I don't know if he would think of himself as creative, but

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: I've helped him work on his mom's car over our house, and I've been over at his house to see the things that he's doing. He is in a constant process of creation. He's bought himself a house here about 10 years ago and is constantly working on it and creating these images and these ideas and these visions of what he wants to have happen in his house. He's recreating his whole garage shop area, built himself a reservoir. Uh, tank to hold fuel and in case, in case he needs fuel and doesn't want to have to go travel to get it when he's working on a car, he's constantly coming up with these creative ideas on how he has to, in order to diagnose what happened, why is the car not running now? So, in his mind, he's, he's thinking, he's running through his, in his mind. This is the way it's supposed to work and it's not working that way. What might have happened? He's looking at evidence like, like he's a private eye practically. He's an automotive private eyes. He's looking at the evidence and he's trying to figure out what is what happened to this car that it isn't running well. I really want to agree with you that, that at, at some level we are all creating and if we, if we could really get into the mind of the person that might even think of themselves as not creative, we would see how creative they actually are.

Marty: Yeah. Like a doctor. And is another example like this, like you might think, well. There's, you know, these bodies, they get these problems and you fix them, but, but it's actually a very creative field, you know, because the answer, it's not, it's not like you just, you know, deduce, oh, therefore, you know, because of these systems, therefore, they're constantly having to create, well, let's try a little bit of this and see if that, oh, no, that's not working. We have to speak to this issue, like they're creating. Um, you know, solutions to innumerable, uh, issues that come up. Um, I, one thing I want to get back to before the end of the conversation that was like, how do we get this state? We're, we're making fine distinctions now inside of creativity. Like what, you know, like what is actually bringing something new in existence and what is just, you know, finding the attention span for something that's repetitious

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: of the phases in between. Like. Like your nephew or son in law,

Bill: Yeah. It's my wife's son, who's the mechanic, my son, who's the, improviser.

Marty: you know, how to, how, you know, what, because we all want to be creative, but just on that note that we were just on, you know, I was working for a company once. As a coach, we did programs for groups and we spent a whole day. I remember once, you know, working on the structure of the program, what needs to come at what point and what points to dilate on what, you know, what's the structure of the day in this seminar and then at the end of it. I, I went on, I used PowerPoint to create a little diagram that illustrated the main points of the day in a, in a, in a, um, in a PowerPoint, um, slide. And, um. You know, it just, it meant taking shapes that they offer and putting, you know, arrows between them and labeling them and colors and, and, uh, my boss came back to me and she was like, wow, you're very creative and I, it struck me like I didn't, I didn't think of that as a creative thing. I feel like I'm just illustrating the point and, you know, like, like drawing a graph of it. chalkboard. I'm, you know, like this didn't feel creative to me, but for her, that was very creative. Right. And then from then on, she kept giving me creative work to do. Right.

Bill: Did you enjoy it?

Marty: I enjoyed it a lot.

Bill: Okay. So I think that that that's the key. That's one of the, the keys to the question that you're asking is how do you get into that creative state? If you're enjoying it, it's easy to do, but if you're not enjoying it, it's almost impossible. If she, if she had handed you work, even though she thought saw it as creative, that you weren't interested in. That you didn't enjoy doing it. Your creativity, I'm asserting your creativity would have been shut down. You would have done enough to get by And,

Marty: and it, but that expanded her saying that expanded my notion of creativity. Right. Uh, because I didn't realize. That's not something that she or anybody else on that team was interested in doing because it was creative work. And for me, it was kind of a translate. It was like putting it into another language for me, making a visual of it.

Bill: yes,

Marty: That didn't feel great. It just felt like a translation job, you know, like a translator at the UN doesn't. Isn't creating a new thing for the, you know, the guy from Russia to here, he's just translating the English into Russian, right? And that's what it felt like to me. But even there, you see, that's a creative act. Mitchell. Um, the wife of Byron Katy is a translator. He's written extensively on what a creative act translator is. He translates Sanskrit and French and German into English, and he's great at it. He's a world famous for it, and he's, he stresses like this is a creative act too. I'm not just, just mechanically translating. Mm-hmm

Bill: it's not something a bot could do. Yeah. Let's, let's go back to what you're saying about what does it take to get into that creative state? And I want to suggest that, um, some evidence for that might be to look at what would stop you from, from just being creative.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: As you mentioned, creativity is one of the eight C's that the internal family systems model uses to, uh, when, when talking about the qualities of, of the self with a capital S. I also refer to those qualities as, as resources. Creativity is a resource that we can tap into, and it's also a quality that shows up when we are in that self state, or it's one of 'em that can show up in that state. What blocks it is fear and, and what seems to, to generate it or have it flow easily is love, which is a, which is akin to enjoyment.

Marty: Well, or enjoyment is a species of it. It's the general. the, it's the genus. And yeah, I think that would be the relationship. It's a type of enjoyment. Yeah,

Bill: Well, I'm just basing my comments and on, on my experience of it. I, when I am in joy, I'm kind of in love. With what I'm doing, with who I'm with, with the environment I'm, I find myself in.

Marty: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so back up from there, then how do you get into love out of fear and into love?

Bill: Right.

Marty: Mm

Bill: Uh, well, you don't get there by pushing the fear away. Because now that's going to require even more effort. We're, we're, we're, fear is already requiring a lot of energy. Fear is all about survival. And if I try to push fear away, now the energy I'm already putting into being afraid. and being concerned about whatever it is that that's generating that fear. Now I've doubled up on that energy because now I have to try to control it. And I got nothing left. I've, I've, I've used up so much of my capacity. They, I got no access to, I've got no access to these eight C's,

Marty: Mm

Bill: including creativity,

Marty: Right.

Bill: but what there is to do then is to get curious, which is another one of the C's. We can pull one of the qualities of C's. And, and even if we just, Um, have to put effort into doing what someone that that is curious would do pretty soon, it, it, it, it kind of creates its own momentum. Can I, what would it take for me to be curious about this fear? And if I were curious, what would, what would I be asking? What would the question be? Often I'll do that with my clients when, when they say, when I ask them, this is a crucial question, by the way, in the IFS model, I'll ask the client, how do you feel toward the part of you that influences you to feel, for example, fear? And if I hear them say, curious, well, I'm curious about it. I believe them, but I also want to test them. So I'll say, oh, great. From curiosity, what would you ask?

Marty: hmm.

Bill: What's the question? And often that'll reveal that, oh, I want to be curious, but I'm really not. But more often than not, the curiosity that they, uh, that they're, they're stating that they have does come with the question. They just have to sit with it for a minute. I'm curious what's causing this fear. What the, I'm curious what the part of me that has the fear. Is, is afraid of, is, is concerned about, well, let's ask, and in the IFS model, we get to go Right. to the part and ask, Hey, part that's fearful. What are you scared about? What's, what, what is your concern?

Marty: Uh

Bill: And if, and if we can just get quiet, and then now this goes back into a practice that you have, even if it only lasts for 10 seconds or 15 seconds to just get quiet inside, ask the question and then get quiet inside and wait for an answer and ask all of your other parts that want to provide the answers. We want to hear directly from the part that's afraid.

Marty: Mm

Bill: the other parts that think they have theories about why this part is afraid, we need them to listen as well. So I'll suggest to the client, see if all your other parts can get curious with you about this fearful part. Now, now that opens up the possibility of some 10, 15 seconds, not, maybe not even that long of just going inside, being quiet. What are you afraid of? I'm waiting for an answer. And then boom, it'll just show up.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I'm afraid of being judged. I'm afraid that I'm going to do it wrong. I'm afraid, whatever that

Marty: I have a question. So, my hunch is, and I'm just, I want to check this out with you, that this fear that prevents us from being our naturally creative selves, I'm suspecting that it could take a lot of different forms, like, Uh, it might not look like fear right away, but that, but I think you're right, that fear is what's underneath.

Bill: is. Mm hmm.

Marty: So, but I just want to open the, our listeners up to think, you know, if you, if you're not being creative and you want to be creative, it might look, this fear might look like busyness. It might be, you know, that you don't realize that by constantly being busy, acting out a kind of fear,

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: that's what's underneath.

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: Right? Or, um, fear might look like boredom. You know, there's a criticism, a judgment about what you're doing that it's boring, hides a fear. Oh, which, you know, it could be of sort, but, but,

Bill: That's right.

Marty: but you're putting, you know, the, the boredom, you're making the thing wrong, the activity wrong, calling it boredom as a way to not see the fear itself. So, and, and I'm sure we could come up with a million examples, but any state other than. the self. You want to question, like, is there an underlying fear that, know, attending to could release you back into your creative self?

Bill: And just getting curious about whatever's showing up, whether it's apparently fear or not

Marty: Right, right.

Bill: You've given given some great examples there. Boredom, anger, overworking, staying busy. Um, if it's not flowing,

Marty: hmm.

Bill: it's probably because it's not creative. If it's not flowing, it's probably because it's misaligned with purpose. And that purpose word can be really tricky. All of this can be really tricky. It depending on if the perception of the, of the, of the language that we're using, uh, is being that perception is being provided by a part that's still tethered to the past

Marty: hmm.

Bill: or by self or a part that's led by self and present related,

Marty: hmm.

Bill: to the present moment. So, if we're talking about creativity. And a part of me gets activated and thinks about that time that I took my drawing to mom and I said, look, mom, and she was busy and she was irritated and impatient with me. Now it feels kind of dangerous to be creative. If that's the part that's still tethered to the past, doesn't want to be creative because I felt rejected when I was six years old and mom didn't like my drawing or didn't pay attention to it.

Marty: Mm hmm.

Bill: That's a kind of an extreme example, I suppose, of, of how. A part of me is sitting in my seat of consciousness and perceiving the present moment, but from a past based experience. That's going to block creativity right there,

Marty: Well, even in my example of my boss complimenting me on that PowerPoint slide that I made that we, by the way, we, we printed out copies of it and laminated and gave it to all the participants. Um, I were to just come back and say, Oh, I have another PowerPoint. I like the, the creativity goes out of it. I'm, I'm acting out of the fear of not getting that same approval again.

Bill: right? Or the seeking of that approval, right? The fear, you're, you're, you're exactly right. I'm afraid I'm going to go back to that place where, where I was in relationship to my boss before I got their approval.

Marty: And see, that's not creative. You get it? That's so not creative.

Bill: Well, it's kind of creative. uh, from the perspective of if you imagine a young child that's being figuring out ways to survive in a situation that that is challenging to survive.

Marty: that's true.

Bill: How can I get my how can I get my needs met? My young parts that I've discovered on my I. F. S. Journey are extremely creative given their age and the resources they had at that age. A five year old who, um, might Yeah, Tell a fib and lie just to get mom and dad's approval or to avoid getting their disapproval just to, uh, that's, that's, that's creative, but it's creative in a way That's survival based and there's a different feeling, a different taste of that all together.

Marty: now we have three different, nothing is not creative. three different distinctions. Now there's bringing something new into existence. There's doing things, and then there's. Creative survival, right?

Bill: Yes.

Marty: so far. Nothing is not creative.

Bill: I don't remember where I first was, um, read this idea or was taught this idea, but the idea that, you know, human beings are not certainly not the biggest, the most ferocious or the strongest. Yeah. Uh, in, in the animal kingdom and yet we have survived all these millions and millions of years because we can create, because we can collaborate, because we are social, because we can brainstorm together, we can figure things out. Uh, and I know many of the animals, many animals do that as Well, But, but we have apparently the ability to create like no other animal that can and to be creative, figure out how to start a fire, how to, how to. Pound a rock until it's round and rolls. Um, make,

Marty: I was watching as I was watching a thing on the mind of, uh, of dogs narrated by Rob Lowe. And they start by saying that all of the dogs that we have in our homes now, they all, you know, their ancestry goes back to wolves. Right. And how did, how did wolves and people come together in domesticity? Well, you know, beings left all these scraps of food around and, uh, and wolves would come and there, there became a kind of symbiotic relationship. They could, they could sit around our fires after we went back into our teepees to bed and be warm and eat our scraps. And so they became more and more closer to that. Was a creative thing that the species did, you know, I mean, it's hard to assign that creativity to an individual dog, but the species itself created this relationship with man.

Bill: that's interesting. I'll bet I'll, I'll have to check that out.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: did you, where did you watch that? Was that on Netflix?

Marty: like

Bill: Oh, okay. What's it? Do you remember what it's called?

Marty: the mind of dog

Bill: the mind of God.

Marty: dog, the mind of. Your dog or of dogs something like

Bill: Huh? That's interesting. I'll have to check it out. So this idea of this creativity, if we're not tapped into it, then something's off. It's, it seems like it is just a natural. innate quality

Marty: Mm

Bill: that. we all have and if we're not accessing it, there's a, there's a pretty good indication right there that we're off. Something's off inside and, and, and then it's time to slow down and get curious about what it is, what is it that's off.

Marty: Mm hmm. right? Exactly,

Bill: Whatever that is, it's not to be suppressed or managed or controlled, simply getting curious about it seems to unfold it in such a way that it now is no longer misaligned, or at least it creates the possibility of that,

Marty: right. It's it's it's kind of like it's it's what's not forced It's what it's like the universe just blooming and it could be through a human being making something But you know flower blooming is creative From this perspective, too. It's just the natural flowering when we're not suppressing it with consciousness or fear or anger or, you know, some other mental state that that is. It's the natural unfolding of human being.

Bill: or of the flower. Now is that flower that's unfol that's, that's blooming, is it working, or playing, or creating, or? Doing a REIT

Marty: Trying to get recognition in a way by blooming. It attracts right bugs that that seed is pollen. I mean, in a way it is attracting.

Bill: I wanna read you, I don't know if I've ever read this to you. I don't, I know that I haven't read it on the, on the podcast before, but this is a quote by a guy by the name of Lawrence P. Soul. Jacks

Marty: Uh huh.

Bill: a master in the Art of Living draws no sharp distinction between his work and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, his education, and his recreation. He hardly knows which is which. He simply pursues his vision of excellence through whatever he's doing and leaves others to determine whether he is working or playing. To himself, he always appears to be doing both. I believe that, yeah, me too, I got it hanging Right. up there. I look at it at least once a week or so and just feel so grateful that that's the life that I get to live. That what others might call work to me, is that what I'm doing? It feels kind of Playful. to me.

Marty: Right. That's I'm glad you use that word. I've been thinking all along. Playful is another characteristic, right? Because we're in a, you know, a psychological state, Yeah. The, the play is to say the least, it might be totally tied down, you know, like in Charles Dickens, um, Robinson Crusoe, it might be totally tied down, but it's at least tethered by an attachment, right? and so, You know, in creative when there's play of some kind, play of concepts, you know, play of, um, body play of possibilities like there's, that's you, that's another sign. Okay, we're moving back into this natural state play. Mm

Bill: There's also an aspect of learning around creativity.

Marty: hmm.

Bill: I, an example of how my parts blocked my ability to just be creative and playful, uh, was when, before my wife and I got married, we wanted to be able to dance a ballroom dance at our wedding.

Marty: Uh huh.

Bill: And I'd never been trained to do that before. So we signed up for dance lessons and we, one of my friends who I'd known for 10 years at that point was a ballroom dancer and loved, loved, loved doing it swing dancing and all the different ones. And in fact, he met his wife by going to these ballroom dance practices. I don't know what they call them. Um, and so he and his girlfriend at the time, they ended up getting married about a year after we did, um, offered to teach us how to ballroom dance. And no matter what I did, I could not get myself to relax and enjoy it. It always felt like work. I always felt self conscious. I always had this voice in my head saying, you look stupid. You're doing it wrong. And my body responded in kind was with stiffness and. Um, Jason was his name. Jason and Angie was the couple's name. And they would just say, Bill, you just you're taking this way too seriously. Um, yes, there are definitely ways to to dance to to properly dance this particular dance. However, If you're trying to control yourself to do it, there's a paradox here that you have to just let go and let yourself make some mistakes. And I had parts at that time, this is long before I learned about IFS, that would not allow me to make a mistake. Even, even though I was with people that loved me, my, my wife to be and these two friends, my parts didn't care about that. They were so concerned about messing up, making a mistake and looking foolish, that I could not relax.

Marty: Well, the whole next was, let's look good at the wedding.

Bill: That's true. That's true. That's true.

Marty: But yeah, that's a perfect example like once. were attached to looking good, doing it,

Bill: Mm hmm.

Marty: was gone.

Bill: Mm hmm. Yes.

Marty: yeah.

Bill: and I would practice at home and I, you know, I'd make myself practice. I didn't want to do it. It was so painful. We did dance at our wedding and then I quit trying to dance. I just quit trying to learn. It'd be kind of interesting now that I've done The work that I've done in IFS if I might be able to do it again.

Marty: I bet you'd be a very different experience at the very least, you know.

Bill: Probably so.

Marty: why they say in that, in those bumper stickers and posters, Dance like nobody's looking,

Bill: Mm

Marty: that peace out of it.

Bill: hmm.

Marty: I'm, I'm a very self conscious dancer

Bill: what? Well, it doesn't say ballroom dance like nobody's looking, though.

Marty: No, right?

Bill: Let's see if we can summarize and kind of begin to wrap up this conversation. We, we, we didn't have any preparation for it other than the idea. We like the idea of creativity. We've touched on a lot of different points. How would you, how would you summarize what we've, what we've discussed here today?

Marty: Well, what I've learned, and I do mean, I learned that is that every phenomenon, every, you know, thing we experience has creativity in it. It's just, are we open? know, to seeing it that way, whether it's outside of us or coming from us, it's, it's, it's not the same as a minute ago. It's, and you, but to see the creativity in it takes, um, you know, attending to your parts so that you can, so that you can be back in the flow, the clarity of the universe constantly blooming in all these ways.

Bill: Yeah. And that I think that that's what's important about the idea of creativity and the experience of it is that that it puts us into the, in the flow. Um, just simply the experience of being in, in a, in a flow state. is practically addictive to me. It's just something that I, that I really enjoy and would, would miss if I, if I couldn't find my way back there again.

Marty: And I think that's what, you know, your mechanic friend is doing. Like this is my job. And so he's finding creativity in the moment, right? Even though he might be repairing a car in the same way that he's repaired so many cars before he's, he's brings creativity and flow to his job.

Bill: And the learning piece of it for him has been, he's had to learn how to weld. He's had to learn how to innovate, to, to fabricate, uh, parts when they're not available. He's gotten really good at being able to do these things. And as a result, he's moved from working in a garage where he's hired to do tune ups and. Uh, oil changes, um, and motor rebuilds to working in a, in a fab shop where people bring their four wheel drives in and he helps create these new beasts out of, out of stock cars and trucks, um, beefing up the suspension and, and fabricating different, uh, parts for the cars so that they are the most unique things on the road. He's now he's really in the flow state because he gets to use all the skills that he's developed and learned over the years, which probably like me, uh, I can't speak for him, but I'm imagining if someone said, here's, here's all the equipment that you need to weld. Let me show you how to weld. I would, I'd be really interested in doing it, doing it, but I also might be pretty nervous about doing it wrong. And that would block my ability to learn it and block my ability to create because I'd be too busy. Being concerned about getting it wrong.

Marty: Exactly.

Bill: Uh,

Marty: Like in a dance class.

Bill: yes, exactly. So, creativity seems to be tied in with purpose. I, I personally believe that we all have a distinct purpose and that that purpose can change throughout our lives, but that at any given point, our internal guidance system, uh, will tell us if we are aligned with that purpose, and when that, when it's time to change that purpose, that, that we, if we can be flexible enough to move in that direction of, of that internal push And stay creative and open that it seems to be that that is the for me, the elixir of life. It is just joyful. That's what puts me in the flow. And when I think that what I was doing 5 years ago that I enjoyed so much, I, I should still be able to enjoy when I don't anymore. That's something to, to notice and, and see if I can let go of to move on to whatever, what is it that life's calling me to do now that I believe is a huge part of being able to be and get into that creative state

Marty: Let's come back to that theme, that topic of purpose and its relationship to creativity in another episode. There's a lot to say there.

Bill: purpose and its relationship to creativity. I'm going to make a note of that. So that we don't forget, which we kind of do sometimes we'll say something like that in an episode and then we never come back to it purpose in relationship to creativity. Let's come back to it in another episode.

Marty: You do a pretty good job of keeping track of our ideas for episodes, I must say. And I thank you for that, too.

Bill: Oh, you're welcome. Well, part of the reason I do is because I write it down

Marty: Exactly. right.

Bill: creative way to remember, I guess. Okay. Always enjoy our conversations .

Marty: I can bye for now, but Merry Christmas!

Bill: Yeah. Merry Christmas to you, Marty. And to anybody else that's listening, whatever year it might be.