Safety

Safety

Bill: Well, this is the Leadership Coaching podcast with Dr. Martin Kettelhut, my co-host, also known as Marty or Doc, whatever you prefer. Do you have a preference, Marty?

Marty: Well, it depends on the context.

Bill: I see.

Marty: yeah. Um, but, uh, all of the above work here. I mean, you call me Marty, so that seems best.

Bill: Okay. Alright, Marty. Yeah. And when people talk to me about my co-host on the podcast that when they listen to it, they, they refer to you as Marty. 'cause that's, that's how I refer to you.

Marty: Exactly, so that way it would just make things more complicated to do something else. Let's stick with that.

Bill: Alright. And my name is Bill Tierney and I'm a results coach and, uh, certified IFS practitioner. Uh, Marty's also a leadership coach and, um, an a prob published author. He is got two great books out. And, um, so our conversations, uh, primarily are focused on leadership, but they are inspired by the coaching that we do. And given that I'm an IFSA certified IFS practitioner, in other words, I use the internal family systems model. Uh, as the template for helping my coaching clients and Martin uses, Marty uses his, his what, what would you say the lens is that you use when you're coaching?

Marty: Um, would, it's probably the ontological model.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: mm-hmm.

Bill: For those that don't understand ontological, what does that mean?

Marty: It's about The causal power of the way that you be, the way that you do things, the way that you, you know, there's a quality to the thinking. Like it's, it's depressive or it's uplifting. It's, it's, um, it's the possibility, uh, that it, it resides in your actions or speaking, and that has causal power that that changes things in the world.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: we focus on.

Bill: Yeah. And there's absolutely, um, a parallel and intersections of the internal family systems and ontology,

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: who I'm being under the influence of my parts produces the results that I get in my life.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: You as a, as an ontological coach, a leadership coach, you help people what to recognize who they're being given the results that they're getting.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, uh, explore the possibility of who they might need to become in order to get different results.

Marty: Yeah. Or Right. Um, and I would also say another approach, you know, like on that question of what, what's your approach or how did you,

Bill: The lens, what's the lens through which

Marty: the

Bill: you.

Marty: I, you know, a lot of my coaching is just through the lens of. Listening, like, what am I not hearing? What are they trying to say to the world that that isn't being gotten? You know, it's, it, this has been the, the really, the lens through which I've looked at coaching from the very beginning because it was, as of the stories I've told here about how when I was first really listened to deeply, it, it changed my life. And so that's what I attempt to bring to every coaching conversation. Is it. Deep listening. that's what moves, that's what moves things forward. And then ontology, again, I, I'm noticing there's a pattern here. I choose lenses that, that produce a difference, make a difference.

Bill: Yeah. As you're sharing that, I, I, I have a story to tell that really validates what you just said. That that really, uh, uh, having someone really listen to, feel listened to, to feel heard,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: changes things, uh. To be told doesn't change so much. Not, not without a lot of pressure and effort. So this story maybe reflects both of those. Uh, as a mortgage loan officer surviving the 2008, 2009 financial meltdown that we had in the country and the world, uh, my commission's dried up. People were too scared to buy homes for a good solid year, and even those that weren't too scared to buy homes were now being treated like suspects instead of CU customers. And

Marty: wow. Mm-hmm.

Bill: so it became a very difficult business and a lot of people got out of the business there. There were far fewer loan officers by 2009, 2010 than there had been in 2008.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: Everything dried up and everything got more difficult and I, I became really disillusioned. In fact, I, I ended up filing for bankruptcy in 2009,

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: hope, hoping that, that this was just a temporary thing and it was gonna pass. And so I started borrowing money to pay the rent and got myself in a real pitch so that when I could see that it wasn't gonna open up anytime soon. And I was so overwhelmed by the pressure and stress of trying to manage all this debt that I'd created to just try to get by month to month to month. I ended up filing for bankruptcy and, and it was a real low point for me. And I, and I thought about getting out of the business too with everybody else, but what was I gonna do? I don't have any college education. I, I've been an insurance agent, I've been a real estate agent. I have sold cars, uh, and I've been in the grocery business for 21 years. So what am I gonna do? And, and that was the question that I couldn't answer. Uh, all I know to do is, is maybe try to make, figure out a way to make this work, or maybe I should be a therapist. 'cause I, I really liked helping people. It was the thought that I had. I really liked helping people. I've been in 12 step by that time for 30 years or so, and. 25 plus years. And, and I, and I know that I love sponsoring people, so I wonder if I could be a therapist. What if I could do that all day? I often had the thought, boy, if I could get paid for sponsoring people, that'd be great. So I thought, well, let me just at least go look into getting some classes at at the community college. So I did that. I signed up and, um, loved it, man. Did I, I went for a couple of quarters and I just loved being in college. I loved learning, but I wasn't putting any energy into generating new loans for income.

Marty: Right.

Bill: And of course, college costs money and I needed to have income to pay for it. And I had just filed for bankruptcy, so I didn't have credit and I didn't wanna go into debt again. Even though I probably could have gotten student loans, I didn't wanna go back into debt. I was scared to death of going into debt again. So after a couple of quarters, I just was so discouraged and I was talking to a woman by the name of Billy. And, and Billy and I told Billy and I, I thought I, she said, yeah, you wouldn't, you'd make a great therapist, but yeah, you're right. It's probably gonna take you eight, 10 years. You're gonna be 70 years old by the time you, you get your master's and then you'll be ready to retire. And I said, yeah, that's the thing. I just, I don't have that kind of time. She said, well, you should talk to my coach. No, I don't need to talk to a coach. I know what a coach was. A coach is a guy that, that you, you buy lunch once a week and, and for, and, and then he tells you what to do and then he shames you when you, when you didn't do it. That's, that was my experience with coaching. Up to that point. I had a guy that I'd hired to hold me accountable and then shamed me when I didn't get things done, and his fee was, I paid him lunch. I bought, I bought him lunch. So I said, no, I don't need to talk to a coach. She said, no, no, this is different. You need to talk to Carlos. Okay, thanks. A week, week later, she calls me and says, did you talk to Carlos yet? And I said, who? Carlos, no, no, no. I don't wanna coach really, bill, just have a conversation with him. Okay, fine. Please go away, Billy. And um, the next week I see this post on Facebook. Hey Carlos, this is my friend Bill. Bill, this is my friend Carlos. You should, you two should get together. Carlos responds, says, Hey Bill, let's get together. God damn it. So, uh, fine. So I set it up and I meet up with Carlos and in the one hour that I spoke with him, he said. Less than two or 300 words, I'll bet less words than it's taken for me to tell this story. So far, he just listened and his words were questions. The things that he was saying was questions. Oh, really? So tell me more about that.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, and then those kinds of questions. At the end of the hour, I just felt this, I felt listened to, and I said, so is, is this what coaching is? And he said, yeah, this is what coaching is. I said, well, I wanna be a coach. Then he said, alright. And then we talked for another half an hour after that and he said, well, here's some things that you can do, blah, blah, blah. And, and, and I got started. I went out and started getting clients and started. Yeah. So with Billy, she had to push. She was telling me

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: nothing changed until she so overpowered my resistance that I was willing to finally do what I didn't wanna do.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: was talk to Carlos.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Lucky for me talking to Carlos. Worked really well because Carlos listened

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: and then I wanted, then I wanted something from him, and my whole life changed dramatically from that point on.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: huge turning point in my life.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Thanks for, thanks for letting me tell that story. It's fun.

Marty: Well, and it also, you know, shows the, at at least two different ways to lead. Right. You can lead by pushing or pulling like Billy did, or it can lead by asking and listening and seeing where, where, where the client needs to go or where the, whoever your, could be your husband or your, you know, your son, where, where the conversation needs to go for them. Right.

Bill: Now this takes us to the topic that we were gonna discuss today. We are 11 minutes into the conversation already, and I'm, I haven't even intro introduced the topic, uh, so far. Maybe it sounds like we're gonna talk about the, the study of being ontology or maybe it talks about, uh, maybe, maybe the topic is listening for leadership. Great topic, but, but what we had decided to talk about before we hit record today was safety. And I had just finished telling you about a new client that came into a group today and how I wondered whether or not that client would be a good fit. When I said by the end of the session they were, I, I could see that they were a good fit. You asked why, what made you, what made you realize that they were gonna be a good fit for the group? And when I, when I answered your question, uh, really at the core of my answer was they felt safe enough to transparently. Disclose in the group so that they, and they felt safe enough to connect with the other participants in the group. So that's what I wanna talk about is safety and, and the kind of safety that maybe doesn't point directly at I'm gonna be physically harmed, or I'm safe from physical harm. It's not,

Marty: look at the conversation with Billy.

Bill: yes.

Marty: What, what in what way was safety threatened by her telling you to talk to Carlos? I.

Bill: Well, I first, first, I can just tell you I did not feel safe. I felt pressured

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I suspected some sort of an ulterior motive that I didn't wanna have to put any energy into figuring out. I.

Marty: There's that. Exactly. And I think sometimes for people, what might be there is um, uh, I might have to give up who I am 'cause I don't go to coaching.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: I would, I would have to be somebody else. And I'm, that there's, that feels unsafe to be somebody other than who I am

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yes,

Marty: threatens my identity,

Bill: a really good point. I see myself as someone who doesn't do coaching

Marty: right?

Bill: because people,

Marty: I already know what coaching is and I know how it works and I, that's not me.

Bill: yeah.

Marty: if you are telling me to do coaching, you're telling me to give up my identity. That's pretty threatening.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Right. And to go against, uh, um, what feels to me like a sound decision based on experience.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I've done coaching before, given that I've already made a decision, I have no, I see no value or point in talking to another coach ever again,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: which.

Marty: Well, and it's, it's similarly, I've, I've had a number of coaches since I became a coach. And some of them, you know, they, you, I don't know why, but they, they feel like in the first meeting, they, they have to give you something wild and crazy to do. You know, like that's, that's going to make you think that they're good or that, that you're in for some real results here or something. I don't know. And it's just like the biggest turnoff because it's like, what? That's not me. I'm not doing that.

Bill: So they would give you something wild and crazy to do, like well outta your comfort zone.

Marty: Yes, exactly.

Bill: And that was, and that's definitely, by the way, a style of coaching. That's not the way you coach because you've coached me. I know that. And because we've had all these conversations about how you coach others, I know that that's not you, and that certainly isn't me.

Marty: Right. And it feels, if I, I would think that. Unless you're, you know, like, um, evil knievel, like

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: to just, you know, drive your motorcycle off a cliff, that's gonna sound very dangerous. Like, you want me to call 50 people every day, or you want me to go up to this person and say something? I would never say like, forget it. I'm not going there. This is dangerous.

Bill: In my, that was a philosophy that was taught in the coach training that I had, and it was, and that was called ontological coaching too, by the way. Now what I understand.

Marty: They probably also, that would probably not have described what ontological means the way I did at the beginning of this conversation.

Bill: I think they would, however, their approach to helping people shift their ontology,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: uh, is dramatically different.

Marty: see. I

Bill: It, it's much more like what you're describing. Let's have you go do something that's so far outta your comfort zone. I. And, and I know that the reason, their intentions are very good

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: having me do something outside of my comfort zone is going to drive up. I'm gonna use the language that I learned, that it's gonna drive up my survival mechanism. And if I can drive up my sur survival mechanism, then I can see it.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: If I'm not driving up my survival mechanism, it's operating in the background and I'm not even consciously aware of it. So let me drive it up so I can see it and now confront it. Now what do I do when I do confront it? Now? That's another thing. That's another now, now that we see what that survival mechanism looks like and the different piece and pieces and parts of it that make up the mechanism that have you surviving,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: now let's look at how that gets in your way. And now that we see how it gets in your way, logically, let's just talk ourselves out of it. Let's stop doing that thing. And for me, that doesn't work.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. It didn't work for me in piano either. Or band. Well, I played in band, you know, like if the, you know, throw down the Stein Sonata in front of me, I'd just be like, ah. But if you gave me like the, the. The first 10 measures or, you know, just the base to practice for a week, then I could get that in my hand. Okay, I got a piece of this, that, that, now we can build on that.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: And I, I, now that we're talking about this, I noticed I had a coaching call with the guy this morning and one of the things he needs to do is, you know, call more people, get on the phone and connect with more people. And, um, so we were looking at. I'm recognizing in hindsight that what would be those first steps? Like what would you do first? Like, figure out what you wanna say, who you want to be from an ontological point of view. You know, what would be something reasonable that you could commit to this week and see how it goes. Those kinds of things. It's like laying. few pavers down to get you to start to get you on the way rather than, you know, just go do something totally outside your comfort zone.

Bill: Give them something to do to practice the baseline and get that much for the first 10 stanza in.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Yeah. And so that's, that's a very, you might, you might say, well, that's pussyfooting, or that's too soft or something, you know, it gets the ball rolling. It gets, it gets people on the path rather than scaring them away because of the lack of safety.

Bill: There we go. And that's what it's about. And it's an internal safety. Do I feel internally safe now? What I understand, and you do too, because you've been around IFS so much, and because of all the work that you've done for, with inner child and, and uh, and, and, and all, all the work you've helped your clients to do with inner child, you recognize, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that, that if it doesn't feel safe inside, it's probably from something that's incomplete or unresolved from the past, something painful, scary, or hurtful that happened that's, that's still not complete, that still hasn't been healed. We don't need to understand that though, to recognize that when we have an inner discomfort that is resisting whatever, whatever it is that we're telling ourselves we should do or that we need to do, or that we must do that while we can muster up the willpower, we could call it that or what, what I would say in IFS is while we can, um, empower those parts of us, that can make us do what we don't want to do.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: We can make some pro apparent progress in that direction.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: is gonna be temporary, and the cost is gonna be great. The cost, the cost and energy is gonna be so great that there's not gonna be sustainability. There won't be enough remaining capacity after the initial effort to make myself do what I don't wanna do, to sustain the effort long enough to actually get the result that I want. And even if I do, I'm gonna be so exhausted that I would never repeat it again. I'll do anything I can to avoid that process again, because it's so painful and so exhausting.

Marty: May I just make two comments about what you just said?

Bill: Absolutely.

Marty: And, you know, because I'm trying to listen from the listener's point of view as much as I can here. Um, one, the first comment is that, you know, on what you just said, that, um, I think been taught, we've picked up this point of view that it's supposed to be hard. Life is hard. Going to work is hard there, it's gonna take effort. You know, you this, it's about being willful and muscular, like that's what life is. And so I think sometimes, you know, the, the client might think, well, I guess that's what I gotta do, is identify what those parts that are used to. You know, battling the world and, and it's not so like, there, that is not in the design of nature or of being human. it, it's, it doesn't need it. Life doesn't need to be hard, know, and that's, that's a, that's a false hood. I don't know if it's cultural or, you know, um, historical or what, but that's, that's, I would question that seriously, that it needs to be hard. other comment I wanna make, um, we could talk more about that if you want, but, um, is that you. You are a very self-aware person. And so for you, feel a discomfort inside. think for many people, including myself by the way, I just react. Like I'm, I'm unsafe. And so I thrash out.

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: I, I say something mean or, or you know, um, make an excuse or like it is. I don't have that, ah, this isn't feeling safe, mo. I just go right to the boom reaction, you know? So I just, I think there might be other listeners out there that are more like me.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure there are, and, and. Thank you, uh, for acknowledging that I am, um, how, how did you say it? I'm, I'm, I'm aware, I'm self-aware and I am so much more self-aware than, than I used to be. But, uh, I'm thinking about the book that I'm writing right now, which is my memoir and, and, um, and I'm at the place in my book where I'm describing what life was like for me as a young man in my early twenties. And I just, the more I write about it, the more I remember, the more I remember and write about it, the more I remember and, and I'm re I'm just reminded of how blind I was, how, how completely unaware that I was.

Marty: Oh, me too. Me too. And 20 and Tony. I mean, I was, I was madly in love during that, the first, like 24 to 34. I was very much in love. Um, and, uh, but, but when I think about the way I was living my life and the way I was in that relationship, I didn't have a clue.

Bill: Yeah, I, well, I, I, and, um, I've met a few really enlightened early twenties. I.

Marty: I have two. Yeah.

Bill: Blows me away when I meet 'em because I think what's expected, what, what we should really expect from ourselves in our twenties is that we, that we, um, that we are, we can't possibly know what life will will show us later

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and that whatever others might judge as arrogance like that we would boldly go into the world as if we can accomplish just about anything.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I think that's great. I

Marty: Sure.

Bill: it's great that we have that

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, we, we year to have it again, don't we?

Bill: it, it looks yes, because it looks like courage. It looks like, um, power, it looks like, uh, fearlessness. And it, and it kind of is for a lot of people. It, it does take courage there, feel the fear and do it anyhow. It does, it does, uh, feel or at least look like. Uh, fearlessness. Yeah. So anyhow, I wanna, what I wanna get back to is your comment about that maybe some of the listeners don't like, like what you're saying is true about you aren't as aware, aware of what's happening inside. There's not that space in between that we've talked about the space between stimulus and response, where something happens out there. I feel an activation in here, and if there's no space, then I just react.

Marty: Right? Mm-hmm.

Bill: If there is a space and I know what to do with that space in between being internally stimulated or activated and then responding to it, then I can begin to notice, oh, okay, there's, there's, I don't feel safe in here.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: doesn't feel safe in here anymore. I, I like you, I wanna blame whatever's happening out there that triggered that feeling of unsafety.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: But in. There are more times than there used to be. I'll say it that way, that that, first of all, I've developed the space. I've, I've really developed the skill of pausing

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: more often than not when I'd get activated and, and measuring what I wanna do before I do it.

Marty: I think this is one of the most valuable things. I mean, nobody comes to coaching asking for it. But it is one of the most valuable things that a coach can impart to a client developing that space, right? Developing the ability to see what's going on inside, and choose how to, how to respond

Bill: Yes.

Marty: than to just be, you know, a stimulant response to life.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Now doesn't, that sounds pretty hard, doesn't it? Sounds like. How the hell do I do that

Marty: Mm.

Bill: if, if, if what life has been for me is being activated by the irritations of life and then re reacting to it, and then feeling ashamed or guilty or frustrated with myself for the way that I reacted, rinse and repeat, if that's what life has been, how do I insert and develop that pause that Bill's talking about? Sounds impossible, doesn't it?

Marty: And what would you say? Like do or I mean, if it's,

Bill: fir, I would say set an intention, first of all.

Marty: well, I think what might come even before that, that's very, very important of course. But I think what might come. In my experience, what comes even before setting an intention is noticing the difference between the way I'm behaving and the way I want to be.

Bill: Yeah, yeah. Very good.

Marty: there is a difference. Oh, and there's some, then there's some space in there to set an intention.

Bill: If I didn't react this way. Then I wouldn't feel bad and then I wouldn't have to justify reacting that way by blaming you or blaming. Blaming external circumstances. Notice I love that. So notice the way I predictably am gonna react in given situations when I get activated, when something pisses me off or triggers me.

Marty: Yeah. Here I am again in this coaching call and I'm, I'm, I have to bring it up again. You know, my wife did this and I just blew up. You know, I don't wanna react that way to my wife. How can I create some space in there?

Bill: And then if, if you're the coach, I hear, I can hear your voice saying, well, how would you like it to be?

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: how it is for you. We can, and you would probably ask them quite a few more questions about, tell me more about what it feels like to react that way. I.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: What happens in that situation? What does it feel like inside? And then what, what's predictably gonna hap happen next? And how's that gonna play out? And so if, if, if there was a way to change up all of all of that, what, how would you like that to be? Who would you like to be in that situation where the very same activating trigger happens,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: but you don't react the same way?

Marty: Right. then I think there's another piece here. That I, you know, I'm, again, I'm judging by, I'm saying these things based on actual conversations I've had of actually practicing your coach, you know, because I, I will often say, what was that? Is that in alignment? Was that reaction you just had in alignment with what you just said? You're committed to, gosh, no. Okay, well let's try it again. And you know, you practice at it and you, I think that, so that when, in the heat of the moment, you've had a few times through this. And so, okay, here we go again. I know how to do this. Hmm.

Bill: Yeah, practice that baseline. Get some body memory of it. Practice. Yeah, that's good. And

Marty: and some verbiage that you know, you, that feels right. You know, okay, I'm going to use that. I'm going to use that word, um, commitment rather, rather than just, whatever intention, or I'm going to use this, these words because they help me draw out that space that gives me, the ability to respond appropriately.

Bill: here's a great example of that. In a coaching group, sometime in the last month, it became apparent that maybe the biggest problem any relationship has is this reactivity that you and I are talking about right now. Party A and party B and are in relationship with each other. Party A does a thing, party B has an internal reaction to the thing that party A did said, didn't say, did, didn't do. Party B reacts. And when they react, it lands on party. A party a reacts, and when they react, it lands on party B. Pretty soon it's a reaction party.

Marty: You had two machines going.

Bill: That's right. And

Marty: no humanity is gone now it's just two machines just doing their thing.

Bill: yep. And like a machine, it runs on automatic and it continues to run until somebody runs outta gas. And that's usually the way it goes. It continues to go sometimes four days or weeks or months or marriages

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: somebody runs outta gas and finally says, okay, fuck, I just don't have anything left in me. I can't do this anymore.

Marty: Right.

Bill: See you. So you were just talking about practicing. So in a group recently, we talked about all this. And that the way to interrupt that automaticity, that machine reaction is for one of parties, party A or party B to say, okay, can we pause? And during this pause, what I want you to know is something's happening inside for me that's really uncomfortable. And, um, I, I notice that when this thing happens inside, like it is happening right now, usually what I do is I blame you for it or I push you away in some way.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And I, and I wanna do that right now, but I have an intention to do something, to try something different.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Get your support. Will you support me in trying something different? I.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And that's the practice and that what the, what there is to do so is different is let's just pause for at least five minutes before we resume this. What I'm gonna do with that five minutes is I'm gonna go meditate, or I'm gonna go journal, or I'm gonna go just sit with my part and ask it. What, what are you, what are you upset about?

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: So this can be a thing between me and my parts rather than a thing between you and I.

Marty: Yeah. And you know, to take this also because I'm, a lot of the clients that I'm working with are in corporate settings, and these things go off in corporate settings too.

Bill: Yep.

Marty: And, um, you can, you can think of applying the same technology there. Um, you can. Like, like you can have a safe word

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: very appropriately named, you know, where when it's getting there you know, you know, I'm just in reactivity or we are both just in reactivity. Then you, you call out the safe word. It could be the word pause, it could be, you know, um, anything. But, but it's agreed upon in advance when we get this way, we're not being productive. So when I say, when one of us says a safe word, take a break and we go to our separate corners and do what we need to, to get back in conversation. Um.

Bill: By the way, most of those safe words do not start with the word letter F. I've tried that. It doesn't work. It doesn't feel very safe for anybody.

Marty: Right, right. Yes. Um, you know, or just having, uh, you know, a regular candle break, a break, that, that is built in to the relationship. You know, the so, and you, this has to be agreed upon in advance. You know, it's like, I love you and I, and I don't want to just, know, fight until we can't anymore. So let's, let's discuss this as best we can and in 10 minutes, we'll take a break just to see are, you know, are you being your authentic self? Am I being my authentic self? Let's get back into. let's just have that built in,

Bill: And what's needed to reintroduce safety into this space between us so that we can, so we can afford, and so, so the parts of me can afford to

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: be my true, authentic self without, without that feeling like a risky thing to do.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So back to your idea of practice. Practice alone, just as a strategy without a clear understanding of why you'd wanna be, do saying that thing differently now. So in other words, we don't wanna practice as a strategy, how to say something so that we can manipulate another person to get a particular outcome. That's not what we're talking about here.

Marty: no, no.

Bill: It's not a sales pitch that we're memorizing. It's not, it's nothing like that.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: is a recognition that it just doesn't, you know, I'm using the word safe and maybe the listener is, is not, is not kind of connecting with that word as well. So I'm gonna suggest some other words that could, could work. Something inside doesn't feel right is another way to say this. Something's off inside. I'm feeling uncomfortable in here. It could be, I, I'm not feeling safe. Maybe that's apparent what's going on. I'm afraid you're gonna hurt me if it's that obvious. But I don't feel right. Something's off inside. I'm feeling squirmy. Right, right, right. And so I need to, I need to take a pause.

Marty: These are other words for what?

Bill: Right. I'm thinking of Leslie, uh, in our episode that we recorded with Leslie. I wanna say, I wanna say episode 11, I'm guessing, uh, with, with Leslie and the spiral method and, and what if in a corporate setting, uh, when that safe word was used, like, uh, can we pause? Or maybe it's just a signal. Maybe it's a.

Marty: it could be. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Um, that, that, what that means is, okay, let's get back in 10 minutes and let's use, uh, protocol three. So now we pull product protocol three out, and my job is to say to you, Martin, here's one thing that I really appreciate you about you,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and now you say, now it's your turn. Bill, here's something I really appreciate about you. We've actually created a little bit of safety, but now I'm, I'm noticing, and now, now Protocol three also includes. When I heard you acknowledge me just now, I noticed that I still am angry and, and, and still kind of wanna punish you despite that you have just acknowledged me.

Marty: Uh huh.

Bill: I told you a truth about me. I've given, given away just something that I've been kind of either hiding or that wants to attack you. Now I'm just, I'm just gonna call it, I'm gonna call tell you what it is, what's going on, and you do the same with me. And pretty soon, one step at a time, we've created safety again.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beautiful.

Bill: We will call that protocol three now.

Marty: Okay. That's protocol number three. Forever, more like, like, um, I like the 10 Commandments. That's protocol number, commandment number three.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Get off the manual. Okay. Protocol three. Oh, that's right. Okay. I'd like to acknowledge you for.

Marty: So, um, I don't, I know that we want to also include some, uh. Information or, you know, start to let the listeners know about the, the next couple of weeks what's gonna be happening in, in the, in the podcast here.

Bill: Great. Let's talk about that. Yeah, go ahead. Do you wanna get started to explain that?

Marty: Um, well, we are going to, we are going to bring to a close the theme of leadership. Um, we, and transform this. Conversation, and this podcast into a new podcast, and it's going to be called True Self.

Bill: True You.

Marty: True You. Exactly. True. You.

Bill: The True You podcast.

Marty: True You podcast. So it, it, it will include, I I feel like, you know, it, it, it's an extension of what we've been discussing, but with, with even more, uh, of a focus on that part of it that is about what, what it is to be and how to be your true self.

Bill: Exactly, and so you can. What's predictable and what you can count on from me is that I'm gonna be, I, as I often do anyhow, I'm gonna be bringing the internal family systems model into those conversations about what happens when we aren't showing up as the, as the true you. And, and how do we find our way to showing up as the true you And what would be the benefit of, of all that? That's slightly different language than, than I'll be using typically because I'm gonna be using IFS language. And I'm gonna guess that you're probably gonna be using an ontological lens to, to approach the true you've through.

Marty: Sure, sure. But, um. Yeah, I think, you know, like for the leaders, the people who've been coming here to learn about their leadership, this will be bring out the true leader in you. Right. As opposed to the leader that's uncomfortable, the leader who feels forced or the leader who's shy, this will, this will bring out the true you leader. Um, so you can see it as an, an, an extension of, and a focusing of the conversation that respect. And, and for those who have been listening to us. To this conversation, this podcast series. You know, from the point of view of, you know, spirituality, like learning more about how I relate, I. To my internal self, to those parts of me that aren't, are not aligned to those parts of me that are better aligned. This is, this is gonna be also, you know, very much in alignment with that conversation. The true you, the essence of who you are. How do we, how do we bring that out, you know, from a, from a point of view as well.

Bill: Wonderful. And so that means that today we are recording to the, the second to the last episode of the Leadership Coaching Podcast.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, um, so next week's episode, go ahead.

Marty: I was just gonna say, so next week's episode will be a completion conversation, as we've talked about in several different episodes. We could call it completion number. I think this will be the third on that topic, but it will be us completing this topic. And where we've come and what we've accomplished and what we, uh, are committed to going forward. So it'll be a completion conversation.

Bill: and I haven't talked beyond that idea. Um, so I'm gonna take the risk of talking about it with you on the recorded podcast. Do you have a, an idea about a structure of how we might go about doing that?

Marty: Um, well, there there are some key questions that I use when I'm. When I'm coaching a, a client through completing with a person or with a project, um, and, um, you know, like a commitment that you no longer are committed to. Um, and so we could use that if you like.

Bill: Yeah, that sounds great. I mean, I, I have some processes as well, but I would say that this is more of a strength for you than it is for me. The completion conversations, uh, I, I have designed my own. For example, when someone's leaving a group, I, I ask the person that's leaving the group and I ask the people that, that, uh, will remain to consider a set of four or five different questions to, so that they're prepared for a completion conversation. That essentially is just an acknowledgement of what they've experienced so far. And a, a more empowering way to say. Goodbye and, and to acknowledge this is the end of what's what we've been doing, and this is what I intend from this point on. If there's gonna be an, an ongoing relationship with the person that's leaving

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: or not.

Marty: Uh, those, I think that that's the core of it, except there's, there's, I think it's important to ask like, what, what needs to be let go of? As well. You know, like what is the, so that it's not one of those many conversations that we take with us and it becomes more baggage, right? What is it that we really need to let go of and why? If it's difficult, why it's difficult to let go of,

Bill: Why is it hard? Yeah.

Marty: can be attended to,

Bill: What's about it? Yeah. Great.

Marty: but that's the basic conversation right there.

Bill: Great. I'm looking forward to that. Uh, anything else you wanna say about the conversation that we had today? Uh.

Marty: About safety? Um, I, I don't, just, to some, just to. Iterate the, the importance of safety for productive conversation. If you're, if you're finding that you're having difficult conversations that you might look at, well, maybe, maybe what's missing here is safety, and if so, what would that look like? You know? Does, does that mean that you, that you need to. Reassure the person or create boundaries or talk in a different way like that, you might approach that first, like, how do I create safety with you so that we can have a difficult conversation? Um, it's, it's one of the main things that has people show up in an, you know, an unwilling get anywhere in a conversation is they don't feel safe.

Bill: And you just, the way you talked about that just now was to things to consider from the perspective of someone that's in a difficult conversation and, and recognizing that the party that they wanna have that conversation with isn't reciprocating. They're not maybe showing up. To be able to have that conversation. But I wanna suggest that you may be that person that doesn't feel safe in a critical conversation. And so I, I wanna suggest maybe a little bit of journaling that you could do to, to prepare for that, or at least to explore, uh, and be more self informed, at least, uh, around the idea of, of having this difficult conversation. And the, the, the questions I'm gonna suggest are, are just around fear. So. Safety is going to, or an absence of safety, is gonna show up in the body and in the emotional, uh, fields as, as fear. So the questions would be, what is it I'm, I'm afraid of? If I don't feel safe, what is it I'm, I'm afraid of? And, and, and if you haven't, uh, like a pushback reaction to the idea that you might be afraid of something, ask yourself this way. What is it that I'm concerned about here? Or what is it I'm worried about here? What is, what am I afraid of? What is it? Am I concerned about? What, what I, what do I worry about in this conversation? I'm afraid that I'm gonna be judged. For example, I'm afraid that this person that I'm gonna talk to is going to leverage the information that I give them and use it against me, I'm afraid. So get clear about, about what it is that you are concerned, worried, or fearful about. Once you're clear on that, then you can take it to another step, which is to ask yourself, what would I need in order to address these needs and concerns and fears and worries.

Marty: Really great. Thank you for adding that. That's. That other side of it, the person who, um, feeling safe. Mm-hmm. Right. That's very important. Thank you for that.

Bill: And in both cases, what you described and what I described has the person assumes that the person has the capacity and willingness to take responsibility for their own experience.

Marty: Right, right.

Bill: I, if I am codependently, depending on you to create safety for me so I can say the thing that I need to say,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: the, the, it's just not gonna work. It's just, it's not gonna work.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Conditions will probably never be safe enough.

Marty: Right.

Bill: On the other hand, if I'm aware of what my concerns, worries, and fears are, and what my needs are out of the conversation, now I, I can practice. Communicating, what is it that I need and how do I say that? I might even have concerns and fears and worries about se telling, saying out loud what it is that I want or need.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: These are all great trailhead to explore

Marty: Amen.

Bill: until next week. Thank you, Marty. I.

Marty: Thank you.